Nevertheless, considering its territorial conflicts with Pakistan and China, should India be interested in the global security order?

Of course. The country with the largest population in the world must be part of that order. And we must realize that the European view of the world is not the only view. Since the news of Russia's invasion of Ukraine arrived in February 2022, as Germany's ambassador to India, I have constantly discussed Putin's war of aggression, which violates international law, and his barbaric actions against Ukrainian civilians to the Indian media, in interviews, speeches, on panels , in a talk show. I don't think I've succeeded in completing my argument. Only one argument is immediately acknowledged: If violent border movements go unpunished, then any powerful neighboring country – to India, especially Beijing – can from now on take the lead and attack neighboring countries at will. But India also sees double standards in this regard.

I'll give you an example. Western countries are now calling for solidarity in their actions against Russia. However, India lost Western solidarity when the country came into conflict with China. Or: Where are the guardians of international law now applied when America invaded Iraq under artificial circumstances? India will not receive a convincing answer on this – because it is unlikely that one exists. And we must not forget that there are three nuclear powers in the region: India on the one hand and China and Pakistan on the other. On a border whose path is disputed by other parties. Ensuring that these trouble spots do not become heated conflicts in the future is geopolitically important, but for Europe this is more of a challenge for peripheral countries. The application of double standards quickly became known in India with particular sensitivity.

India has maintained a non-aligned policy since the Cold War and, in principle, to the present day. How can this country still be interested in intensive cooperation with Western countries in the field of security policy?

India wants to be treated equally, so India will also treat us equally. Given its misalignment, the country has always maintained pragmatism and balance in its foreign policy. India has joined political groups of countries – like the G20, Brics, Quad – but Delhi will not turn to alliances or military blocs. By intelligently balancing today's multipolar world politics, India has managed to protect its own interests – from China and Russia, but also from Western countries. We should not underestimate India.

Given its size, population, and role as a non-aligned country for decades, does this country have the potential to become a representative of the Southern countries?

Very. However, it is unlikely that this will be the only vote from the South. Beijing also has ambitions here. India, on the other hand, has an advantage over China because of its tradition as an independent and flexible player. But to become one of the most important voices, or even the most important, India is on that path now. Yet the world's most populous country is still waiting for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council – an indictment of the UN!

You served as ambassador to New Delhi from 2019 to 2022, but you've known the country since you were young. How has India changed since your first visit?

On the one hand it is great, on the other hand not at all. Of course everything is more modern, bigger, shinier. But culture and spirituality that are thousands of years old remain unchanged. I traveled to India in 1977 as a backpacker. I saved money by driving a taxi in Munich and trucking to the Middle East. When I arrived, I was initially shocked.

I arrived with Hermann Hesse's “Siddhartha” in hand, hoping to explore the origins of legendary musicians like Ravi Shankar and understand the wisdom of gurus and sadhus. I admit, there is a lot of idealization. The reality is less pleasant. Despite months of overland travel through wild countries like Iran – under the Shah – and Afghanistan – under the King – I may have initially experienced what we would now call culture shock. Starting from the train journey, there were so many people getting on and off through the windows. Toilet? There isn't any. People let nature take its course in the compartment, chewed betel nuts landed on me, the heat was indescribable, the noise was deafening, and you definitely won't feel claustrophobic.

Yes. After a three-day train ride from Lahore, I arrived in Delhi in July 1977. I spent my first night in the red light district near the main train station; the weather is hot, dirty, and unpleasant. This is not what I imagined. Later I discovered more rural areas of India – and I was rewarded. Apart from these surprising moments, the astonishing beauty of India, its depth, color and cultural diversity began to emerge before me. You have to work for India, you have to be open and curious about the ineffable, but then India offers you treasures and insights like no other country in the world.

You were in India for six months, then went on to Nepal. For what reason?

I'm far from done with India, but my body and senses need a break. The country is too busy – especially if you are traveling there as a backpacker with the cheapest accommodation and transport. You can't keep it up for too long in one go. By the way: In 1977, 677 million people lived in India. On the other hand: today there are twice as many. One of the changes the country has experienced since my first trip. I then continued my journey through Nepal and around the world. After four years I arrived back in Germany, the money and desire to travel had initially run out. However, there is no certainty about continuing the journey across India at a later date. What I didn't know: at that time as German ambassador.

In your book “The Old West and the New South” you urge us to make India an example in several respects. What should we learn?

India today is no longer like Germany: young, dynamic and innovative. Ready to improvise, resilient, digitally advanced, culturally diverse, colorful, with huge economic growth and a global perspective: Indian citizens live in almost every country in the world. This country is the voice that the Southern countries are looking for. Germany approaches India as an economic, environmental and strategic partner in an increasingly uncertain world. It makes sense to look at what India does differently to what we do: There is pragmatism, a love of innovation and a willingness to take risks, as well as a deep spirituality;

Even if Western dominance weakens: Will democracy, human rights and individual freedoms as basic components of the Western-style social model also survive in India?

I don't know if “Western influence” should always be or will be at the forefront. Yet India's democracy is the largest in the world, strong and able to overcome many challenges brilliantly in recent decades. That not every democratic country has to align with the Bonn Republic, that Brussels may represent the 450 million inhabitants of the European Union, but 7.5 billion people live outside the European spectrum, and that not all social development in Western countries is also shared within the national spectrum -European countries. the whole world is clear to anyone who travels around the world and listens.

Various regions of the world have very diverse political, climatic, colonial, cultural and religious characteristics. And today, less than 20 percent of the world's population lives in Western countries. What right do we have to tell the 80 percent how the world should function? And where is India? I believe that the founders of independent India were absolutely right: India's national unity was strengthened by diversity and religious diversity. However, what is certain is that Western politeness and humility are more acceptable in India than simply spreading Western values. No one in the South has forgotten that the West itself has too often ignored this.

Mr. Lindner, thank you very much for the interview.